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  • Sun, Nov 16 2008 10:03 AM

    Faint [faint] The Guardian Article - How to Escape a "Controversial Online Community!"

    How to Escape a "Controversial Online Community!"

    (um - close your browser..? Sad )

    For more about where the mother posts - and the almost certain source of "info" about FDR, click here (warning - very strong language).

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/nov/15/family-relationships-fdr-defoo-cult

    (This article was also the topic of a recent Sunday show, available here)

    (I also did a podcast on this topic...)

    I have already expressed my regret about how this article may affect Tom. Putting that aside for the moment, here are some of my thoughts.

    There are particular biases in the article that I think are worth examining.

    The most striking thing about the article is that the entire case against FDR is based on the hearsay of one aggrieved mother and entirely off the record "anonymous" sources. The reporter did not choose to interview any other members of Barbara's family.

    For instance, Barbara reports what her younger son is supposed to have said about his childhood, but the reporter does not actually talk to the son directly -- which scarcely seems like a difficult thing to do. Furthermore, she does not interview the father, or say that he refused to be interviewed -- or talk to any extended family members. Of course, Tom did not wish to be interviewed either.

    I am no reporter, but it seems likely that you need at least one corroborating statement when dealing with an aggrieved party, otherwise it is just hearsay. Since the presence or absence of significant family problems is the most essential question in this entire matter, not lifting a finger to verify the facts is highly significant. Since the younger son lives at home, it would have been simply a matter of Kate saying, "Please put him on the telephone, so I can ask him a few questions..."

    Once you get beyond the mother's stories about how happy her family was, some striking facts do emerge. The father had significant mood swings, was verbally abusive and aggressive towards animals, and threw objects when he was angry. The family no longer ate meals together, and had not for some time.

    Family communication was almost nonexistent, as Barbara says later regarding her new relationship with her other son. Also, the marriage was close to ending when all of this was going on, since it has ended recently, and that does not happen overnight, particularly in a lengthy marriage. Furthermore -- and most significantly -- Tom literally burst into tears during our conversation when talking about how terrified he was of his father, and you simply cannot fake or be manipulated into that kind of deep emotion.

    These facts indicate significant family problems, which at the very least should cause any reasonably objective or curious reporter to investigate the matter further -- particularly if you are making the rather startling claim that the only significant problem in the entire family unit is some podcaster from Canada.

    After Tom said that he intended to leave the family, he did stay in contact with his mother, since she says that she tried everything -- persuasion, negotiation, compromise and so on -- and yet the content of what is being discussed is never mentioned. What is being negotiated about? What is the content of the compromise? What is the compromise itself?

    Then, the mother says:

    "But Tom didn't seem interested in communicating, merely in throwing accusations - for instance that his brother John and me were fond of laughing at him, which wasn't true."


    This completely denies Tom's genuine experience of his family and calls him an outright liar -- thus throwing accusations at him, which is not quite the same as trying everything to come to a compromise.

    The reporter then shifts from talking about FDR to talking about the Cult Information Center, as if the two are related in some unstated way. The CIC reports that:

    "...several people have been in contact recently about family members recruited into cult-like organisations via chatrooms or other online means - recommends that families try to keep up some form of contact."


    This statement could be associated with any website, and is not specific to FDR in any way. If the CIC had tagged FDR as a cult, doubtless this would have been mentioned. This is just a transparent form of guilt by association.

    Now -- what has the net effect been of Tom's "absorption into a cult"? He is not begging for loose change at the airport, he has not shaved his head, he does not wear a bedsheet, he has not been charged any money, he has not been tattooed with the FDR logo -- in fact, I have not seen him around for months, or had any interactions with him at all.

    The net effect is that he is doing fine at university, and I wish him the best. The sum total of this "cult" accusation is that I showed him deep sympathy when he burst into tears about his family -- a real surprise to me -- during a call in show. I will always show sympathy for the child over the parent -- that is not specific to FDR, but would be any compassionate person's approach to this kind of psychological pain.

    I was pleased that Kate included this quote from me:

    "[Stef] ...simply reminds people "that our family relationships are voluntary and you should really work, if you're unhappy in these relationships, to improve the quality of those relationships - but to remember they do remain voluntary. And that gives people the motivation, I think, to try to improve them. But if you can't improve them - and we can't change other people, as we all know - for sure you should have the option to disengage."


    There is no reasonable therapist, psychologist or psychiatrist in the world who would fundamentally disagree with such a statement. If people have a problem with this basic reality, then they have a problem with psychology as a whole.

    A little later, an interesting switch occurs about money.

    After quoting my statement that I do not charge money, Kate responds that critics say people do pay -- which is not the same thing at all. I do not charge money, but people who are grateful for whatever help, insight and wisdom they get from the site do donate if they want. If receiving voluntary donations is the same as charging people for goods, then the Heart and Stroke Foundation is actually a competitive business, and should cancel its charitable tax status.

    Towards the end of the article, we see an interesting "argument from adjective."

    "Tom does say that he is frightened by his father's mood swings, which sometimes cause him to throw things or shout at the cat. But the conclusions Molyneux jumps to, his manipulation of the conversation, is chilling."


    So -- when Kate listens to a sensitive and hurt young man sobbing about his childhood, and his terror and humiliation in the face of his father's rages, the only thing that "chills" her is my side of the conversation? That to me is impossible to comprehend emotionally. Even if there were clear criticisms of how I handled this emotional eruption, surely the more chilling aspect is the behavior of the father throughout Tom's childhood.

    There is no proof of my "manipulations" of course -- and the fact that Kate finds the conversation "chilling" is perfectly meaningless: it is a mere statement of subjective experience. If I say that I find the theory of evolution "chilling," clearly that contains no truth statements about its contents.

    Also, it would have been very easy to include a link to the podcast itself, or at least provide the podcast number, which was not done, which seems very strange, especially when we remember how Alec Baldwin's verbal attack on his daughter was so widely distributed.

    The media loves to reproduce truly chilling audio clips, like 911 calls, taped recordings with bad people, and so on. It is a shame that she did not give her readers the chance to easily find the podcast in question, and come to their own conclusions. The podcast number is 1037. 1:27:00



    I do stand by my statement that there are no "really good" parents -- I think that until a rational proof of objective ethics is more widely disseminated, parents have little choice but to substitute will and punishment for genuine and reasonable moral authority. If I have criticisms, which of course I do, at least I strain myself to the utmost to provide better solutions.

    Saying that there are no really good parents is not the same as saying there are no good parents at all.

    I also stand by my statement that it is wrong to use the media in this way -- to insult, degrade, attack and humiliate your son by implying that he is weak-minded, hysterical, defensive, aggressive, irrational, susceptible to cultism, a liar and so on -- and to not only provide a first and last name, but also the town that he grew up in, which is a complete non sequitur in the context of the story itself.

    There is an even more essential question: why is this article being written at all? Is it because FDR is some monster child-eating cult that is laying waste to families across the world? Of course not.

    Did Kate find this story and then go looking for a parent? That seems highly improbable -- the most likely scenario is that Barbara contacted Kate with her complaints about FDR. Why would Barbara do this? Why would she subject her son to this kind of article, with all that it implies about him? Is it because she believes he is in a cult and wants to help him?

    Of course not -- she is fully aware that the CIC instructs parents not to attack the "cult." Is it because she wants to warn other parents about FDR? If that were genuinely her goal, she would have demanded anonymity in the article to protect her son, and suppressed all personally-identifiable characteristics about herself or her son. This she did not do.

    Furthermore, it was clear to both women that Tom did not want the article to be written or published. So -- what is the purpose of the article? The likely net effect is that Tom feels hurt, frightened, angry and exposed.

    Imagine seeing a childhood photo of yourself splashed across a popular newspaper, and your mother bringing every complaint and accusation against you to the attention of millions of people, and on the Internet, permanently. This is an exercise in humiliation.

    The fact that I suggest seeing a therapist to people with a great deal of emotional ambivalence does not exactly support the thesis that FDR is a cult -- this fact is summarily dismissed in the article:

    "...by the time people go into therapy, it's probably too late - they've already decided they were abused and persuade the therapist as such."


    The idea that a web site can implant false memories in people so permanently that they would completely fool a trained therapist is pure nonsense. Therapists are trained to assess, probe and evaluate -- and are not easily misled.

    The only other thing that I wanted to mention was this ridiculous idea that people can somehow be imprisoned in a website. As Kate puts it, when she is attempting to comfort Barbara at the end of the article -- scarcely indicating impartiality or objectivity:

    "Some people do manage to leave FDR, however, and I point out that Tom is only 18."

    It is hard to imagine how an educated and intelligent person could conceivably make the statement that it is hard to leave a website -- freeing yourself from the "grip" of a web site is as easy as navigating to another web site, or simply closing your browser.

    There is a fair amount of bias and manipulation in the article, but to me it is so obvious that it is impossible to imagine that it fools many people -- and those who are fooled by it, would be very unlikely to benefit from exploring philosophy anyway, so no real harm has been done to those who remain so frightened by hearsay that they will avoid exploring the truth.

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  • Sun, Nov 16 2008 10:17 AM In reply to

    • MAF
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Oct 14 2007
    • Posts 483
    • Philosopher King

    Re: How to Escape a "Controversial Online Community!"

    Big Smile Great response! I am very proud to be part of this community!

    I Stumbled and DUGG this thread.

  • Sun, Nov 16 2008 1:04 PM In reply to

    • a14
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Tue, Mar 18 2008
    • Posts 216

    Re: How to Escape a "Controversial Online Community!"

    I've always found the 'cult' label absurd and baseless when it comes to FDR. Although I have my disagreements with Stef, I've learned a lot here and would recommend it to anyone. I doubt unfounded attacks can ever damage the ideas discussed here but what do you think might happen to FDR itself if the 'cult' label caught fire in the mainstream media?

  • Sun, Nov 16 2008 1:32 PM In reply to

    • cowen70
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Wed, Jul 23 2008
    • Newcastle, England
    • Posts 120

    Re: How to Escape a "Controversial Online Community!"

     Well how could you apply it in comparison to something like Scientology?  You have one where participation is purely voluntary and at the same time can be an awful lot of hard work, educating yourself is.  Its a lot of fun but working your way through learning rudiments of psychology, philosophy and a whole new political theory requires a not inconsiderable amount of time.  Money is not coerced but voluntary, you can participate in FDR without ever paying a penny.

    Where the disagreement sets in is the subjective perspectives of whether the philosophy is beneficial or negative since no other points hold water in relation to FDR.  Leaving an abusive family is to some negative because they have the obscure notion that family is the most important thing no matter what abuse you have undergone.  The line is only drawn at physical abuse and sometimes not even then. 

    We obviously agree that voluntary healthy relationships are better and time should only be spent on those that are.  What frothing at the mouth lunatics we are!

  • Sun, Nov 16 2008 1:49 PM In reply to

    • DW2
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, Oct 15 2008
    • Posts 28

    Re: How to Escape a "Controversial Online Community!"

    It's true that participation is voluntary, and free, but full participation is not free. The more access you want to content, the more you have to pay. And still--why should content be free? That's not an expectation. The weird part is that parts of the discussion board are off limits to people unless they pay. So there is a monetary requirement. The labels that go with the different levels of remind people that there are different levels (and the names of the levels themselves have monetary connotations--the picture is an ingot, after all), too. Now it starts looking less like a free domain and more like a private, exclusive philosophy club. This talk about banning people from even the free part because of things that they say and places they frequent is off-putting (regardless of whether or not it is fair), and then you start looking more like a private, exclusive philosophy club with a code of behaviors.

    That's the part that makes people compare it to Scientology.

     

  • Sun, Nov 16 2008 1:55 PM In reply to

    • drebelx
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Mar 19 2007
    • Springfield
    • Posts 162

    Re: How to Escape a "Controversial Online Community!"

     A well thought out response. Yes

    All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them. Galileo Galilei
  • Sun, Nov 16 2008 2:02 PM In reply to

    • cowen70
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Wed, Jul 23 2008
    • Newcastle, England
    • Posts 120

    Re: How to Escape a "Controversial Online Community!"

     Well I don't have access to those areas but I find that the 99% of the forum I can access and 1200 podcasts are more than enough.  As well as the five or so books.  Accessing a couple of podcasts isn't worth the money, the only reason to give money is if you feel it was worth it.

    As for the levels, there are many websites that have similar things.  One I was a frequent member of was a gaming website that had citizens and civitates depending on your level of contribution and yet has avoided the cult status.  If people are banned I am sure it is for a good reason such as aggression.  It certainly isn't because they haven't paid.

    OH FYI Scientology is complicit in the deaths of a number of people as well as extortion intimidation and severe harrasment.  Other cults are responsible for a lot of deaths.  These are the things you are using as a benchmark, so really, can you still do so?  If you can I think you are seeing whatever you want to see, or trying to win an arguement.

  • Sun, Nov 16 2008 2:48 PM In reply to

    Re: How to Escape a "Controversial Online Community!"

    LOL @ cult!

    It's just so silly though, really. These people sound deperate, and possibly highly manipulative and emotionally unstable people.

     

    "Better a cruel truth than a comfortable delusion."

  • Sun, Nov 16 2008 2:51 PM In reply to

    Re: How to Escape a "Controversial Online Community!"

    I also stand by my statement that it is wrong to use the media in this way -- to insult, degrade, attack and humiliate your son by implying that he is weak-minded, hysterical, defensive, aggressive, irrational, susceptible to cultism, a liar and so on -- and to not only provide a first and last name, but also the town that he grew up in, which is a complete non sequitur in the context of the story itself.

     

    Its sad that it is hard for people to recognize this form of intimidation (even myself sometimes!).

    So much for the loving and innocent mother act... "oh I just love my pathetic, lunatic of a son and I wish he could see that!"

  • Sun, Nov 16 2008 3:10 PM In reply to

    • DW2
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, Oct 15 2008
    • Posts 28

    Re: How to Escape a "Controversial Online Community!"

    cowen70:
    I don't have access to those areas but I find that the 99% of the forum I can access and 1200 podcasts are more than enough.

    There is definitely more than enough to do on the free parts of the forum, but if you can't access the rest of it you don't know what percentage of the total the free stuff represents. You're just guessing, or relying on information that people who pay for the content give you.

     

    cowen70:
    If people are banned I am sure it is for a good reason such as aggression.

    There is disagreement about this in another thread on this forum. The "Who Are You and Why Do You Say You Are Liberated" thread or something. For the subject of banning to be brought up as a common thing is strange in a free online forum. It really is. People get banned here and there for doing outrageous, ugly things (like threatening to rape someone) but I was online when the member Bill Rausch was banned in some Agnosticism thread and I can't see why he was banned. He certainly wasn't aggressive there--persistent, perhaps. And then that member eye2i2 was banned the same day for visiting another site, according to what people are saying today.

    I can jive with this being an exclusive, private philosophy club with a code of behaviors. But when it starts behaving differently than other online communities people are going to talk. Scientology is probably brought up as a comparison because in the popular culture it's a famous cult with nutty, expensive ways. It doesn't currently have a particularly insidious reputation right now (although that is changing as more gets published and documented about what its leaders are doing). If it's being compared to Scientology or another cult it's not because the people comparing it think FDR members are killing people or about to kill themselves. They are thinking of Tom Cruise and Xenu.

     

     

  • Sun, Nov 16 2008 3:11 PM In reply to

    • SiddaLee
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Fri, Sep 5 2008
    • Edmonton
    • Posts 43
    • Philosopher King

    Re: How to Escape a "Controversial Online Community!"

    I feel really bad for Tom in this article.  His mom seemed as though she started to act like a victim and was only concerned for him with no self interest of her own after Tom made his decision.  She wasn't even giving him any credit for making his own decisions, and then had to shame him by making it seem as though there was something wrong with him.  This trickles down from the state.  His mother is doing every possible thing to  to defer any  responsibilty, and as long as her image isn't tarnished and no one assumes she is a poor parent -- made it ok for her to call everyone to express concern for Tom.  It was about making her self feel better.

    I agree, though, afer reading this article, although Tom maybe feels humiliated, I don't feel that this article reflects anything negative on him at all.

     

  • Sun, Nov 16 2008 3:44 PM In reply to

    • cowen70
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Wed, Jul 23 2008
    • Newcastle, England
    • Posts 120

    Re: How to Escape a "Controversial Online Community!"

     Well there is certainly more than enough content that I am not worrying about it.  There is also no one who has alluded to the extra premium content, I understand why he does it, but I don't imagine there is that much more that can possibly be given than the immense amount on offer for free.  It is an incentive to try and bring money in but I suspect not much of an incentive, the real incentive is voluntarism.  I can get behind that.

    I could really get behind the arguement behind, if there were say 100 podcasts available and the rest were hidden but the ratios are so far reversed it is ludicrous. 

     As I have previously stated as well I have seen this on many other websites.  A fan site for Total War used to be operated in just such a fashion.

    Scientology is not just a nutty cult.  I can link you to specific cases where they have been involved in deaths and other criminal very violent activity.  Not to mention their coersive and emotional manipulation that also borders on violent.  People can believe what they want to believe, but someone can't try and tell me that one persons subjective view of anothers actions is tantamount to cultism which is generally violent and responsible for a great deal of violence and pain.  Or if they do, they should at least have some justification beyond what you have given.

     

  • Mon, Nov 17 2008 8:58 AM In reply to

    • yurface
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on Tue, May 27 2008
    • Dallas, Texas
    • Posts 454
    • Silver Donator

    Re: How to Escape a "Controversial Online Community!"

     this reminds me of the plot to one of the harry potter books where some writer for the wizard paper start lambasting harry or whoever when he's just trying to tell the truth and set everyone against him. of course he wins in the end but yeah. 

    What part of voluntary do you not understand?

     

    lol @ me being such a nerd 

     

  • Mon, Nov 17 2008 10:22 AM In reply to

    • Fernando
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Sep 14 2008
    • Argentina
    • Posts 71

    Re: How to Escape a "Controversial Online Community!"

    a14:
    I doubt unfounded attacks can ever damage the ideas discussed here but what do you think might happen to FDR itself if the 'cult' label caught fire in the mainstream media?
     

     

    Fuck them, this is not a popularity contest. The truth is the truth, if they don't want to get it, or are afraid to get it, they deserve to be mislead. 

    "It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a 'dismal science.' But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance." Murray Rothbard

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