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Latest post Tue, Nov 2 2010 2:51 PM by SimonF. 125 replies.
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  • Tue, Nov 11 2008 7:38 PM In reply to

    Re: How does UPB apply to nonhumans?

    I don't get why the argument always comes to something as stupid as this. "Animals kill animals, therefore it shouldn't be wrong for us humans to kill animals." . . . or "What about a survival situation?"

    Do I really need to respond to this to point out the inconsistency? Ok, fine. Sure . . . the claim that humans should be allowed to kill animals if animals are allowed to kill animals is correct IF you don't think that humans should be held to a higher moral standard than animals. If you wish to argue that humans shouldn't be held to a higher moral standard than animals, feel free. 

    As far as survival situations, as Stefan himself says, if avoidance is impossible, there can be no morality. Thus, if you need to survive, then moral codes aren't as prevalent. 

    Let me restate my argument since I don't see anyone responding to it. One can have a completely plant-based diet and be perfectly healthy. This is a nutritional fact. Sentient life has more moral value than non-sentient life just as rational sentient life has more moral value than sentient life. Thus, it is universally preferable to eat a diet coming from non-sentient life over a diet coming from sentient life. 

     

  • Tue, Nov 11 2008 7:41 PM In reply to

    Re: How does UPB apply to nonhumans?

  • Tue, Nov 11 2008 10:39 PM In reply to

    • avagdu
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, May 19 2008
    • Posts 160

    Re: How does UPB apply to nonhumans?

    "What about a survival situation?"

    What do you consider a 'survival situation'? Indigenous people have a meat diet for a reason. Are they being immoral?

    If you want to say 'people should eat vegetarian if they can afford it' that's fine, but that's not really a compelling argument.

  • Wed, Nov 12 2008 12:16 AM In reply to

    Re: How does UPB apply to nonhumans?

     

     Please Define "sentient" and tell us how to detect it in an organism.

    Power is not in a gun or a badge, it is in the lie. When you can get a majority of people to believe in the lie, even though they know deep down that it is a lie, then you have absolute power.

  • Wed, Nov 12 2008 1:22 AM In reply to

    Re: How does UPB apply to nonhumans?

    avagdu:
    If you want to say 'people should eat vegetarian if they can afford it' that's fine, but that's not really a compelling argument.

    Is saying that people should buy food rather than steal it if they can afford it a compelling argument?

     

  • Wed, Nov 12 2008 1:31 AM In reply to

    Re: How does UPB apply to nonhumans?

    Walter33:
     Please Define "sentient" and tell us how to detect it in an organism.

    The ability to perceive or feel. 

     

  • Wed, Nov 12 2008 2:09 AM In reply to

    • avagdu
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, May 19 2008
    • Posts 160

    Re: How does UPB apply to nonhumans?

    Is saying that people should buy food rather than steal it if they can afford it a compelling argument?

    Not really, you've set up a false dichotomy there.

  • Wed, Nov 12 2008 7:17 AM In reply to

    • DMH
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Mar 20 2008
    • Posts 247

    Re: How does UPB apply to nonhumans?

    why do topics about vegetarianism pick up so many trolls? I'm not a vegetarian myself, but i still recognise it as an issue worthy of discussion.

    If people can't come up with a reasonable counter argument, it could mean that there isn't an obvious one, or one at all.

  • Wed, Nov 12 2008 9:16 AM In reply to

    Re: How does UPB apply to nonhumans?

    To me, there are some practical considerations to questions of vegetarianism that I think are important to remember, outside of the moral arguments that are put forward in my book.

    It is true that a highly retarded human being may not be a whole lot more intelligent than a chimpanzee, but the reality is that very few people want to eat either apes or people, so I don't consider that to be a highly pressing issue, to say the least.

    Secondly, I do think that it is a slippery slope to say that eating plants is "better" than eating animals -- plants certainly seem capable of feeling pain, and I'm not sure where the clear demarcation is betwee, say, lizards and plants -- if we are going to say that it is okay to eat the category "plants" but not "lizards" - then we are already saying that a category called "less intelligent/less aware" is okay to eat, which also would include "humans" versus "animals/plants."

    Thirdly, I think it's also important to remember that if we stop eating animals, we will not treat the ones we have better -- which certainly would be great of course -- but all that will happen is that we will have fewer animals. It seems quite possible that cows would become extinct -- or close to it -- and perhaps chickens and pigs as well, so I'm not sure that would be a better solution for them.

    Fourthly, one of the reasons I think that animals are treated quite badly in domestication -- and why we eat them in such quantities -- is because the true cost of meat is obscured by near-universal government subsidies. Of course we are all aware of the fact that it takes 7 pounds of grain to create 1 pound of meat -- as well as a prodigious amount of extra water -- and yet grain does not cost a tiny percentage of meat -- that is because of government subsidies, which of course should be -- and would be -- eliminated in a voluntary society. This would result in vastly increased prices of meat, relative to vegetables and grains, which would reduce demand, and thus reduce the number of domesticated animals designated for slaughter.

    Fifthly, if we do have the goal of raising our empathy towards animals -- which I think is a fine idea -- then I think that we face the requirements to first raise people's empathy towards human beings, which seems far easier, although still terrifically difficult.

    For instance, it seems impossible to imagine that Americans would become more empathetic towards animals before they become more empathetic to the victims of US imperialism, such as the innocent Iraqi civilians who are murdered by the tens of thousands.

    Thus the goal of raising empathy towards animals has to go through the requirement of raising empathy towards humans. And of course there is no way to raise empathy towards others without raising empathy towards oneself, which is the great challenge of self-knowledge and gentleness with the self.

    The elimination of cruelty towards animals would seem to me to be only achievable after the elimination of cruelty towards the self, and cruelty towards other human beings, particularly children -- thus I think that the goals of this philosophy conversation arenecessary prerequisites for the goals of animal rights activists, and so I am sure that we can work together to achieve the necessary empathy within the human race that serve both of our goals of elevating the moral sentiments of mankind.Smile

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  • Wed, Nov 12 2008 10:47 AM In reply to

    • Nathan
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    • Joined on Thu, Mar 23 2006
    • Philadelphia, PA
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    Re: How does UPB apply to nonhumans?

    Brilliant, I want to post this on my blog.

    Follow me on Tumblr.

  • Wed, Nov 12 2008 1:46 PM In reply to

    Re: How does UPB apply to nonhumans?

    Thanks, Stefan. :)

     

  • Wed, Nov 12 2008 1:53 PM In reply to

    Re: How does UPB apply to nonhumans?

    hey, you're more than welcome, I'm sorry it took me a while to respond...Smile

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  • Wed, Nov 12 2008 1:53 PM In reply to

    • Jessen
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    Re: How does UPB apply to nonhumans?

    Great post Stef!

    If it's not honest, helpful, or true, don't speak it.

    Don't try to be better than others, only better than yesterday.

     

    Blog

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  • Wed, Nov 12 2008 11:43 PM In reply to

    • Paul C.
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    Re: How does UPB apply to nonhumans?

    Wow, Stef.  You never cease to amaze me!  What a fantastic post!

    Democracy: The Newest Innovation in Livestock Management Techniques!

    When people kill for a lie, they also murder the truth. - Stefan Molyneux

    百聞は一見にしかず。- Japanese Proverb, "Hearing something 100 times can't beat seeing it once." The only way to spread philosophy.

    People who teach their kids conclusions are harming their kids ability to understand reality, and are thus abusers. Those who teach methods are not. This is a difference in kind. People who teach their kids the conclusion that Santa Claus exists are not inflicting a lifetime full of guilt or fear. Those who teach that Jesus Christ exists are. The latter are far more egregious. This is a difference in degree.

  • Thu, Nov 13 2008 2:32 AM In reply to

    • DMH
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Mar 20 2008
    • Posts 247

    Re: How does UPB apply to nonhumans?

    Stefan, are you implying that cruelty to animals is a moral wrong? because some philosophies put absolutely no value on anything other than humans. I'm just trying to get to grips with this fundamentally rather than practically.

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