Freedomain Radio

Going through the podcasts, Stef frequently puts forward the point that the Bible advocates the slaughter of the non-believers.  However, due to the sugar coated interpretations Christians have been fed all their lives, this is unobvious to them. It seems to me that you can confront a Christian on something much worse that they advocate: the eternal torture of all unbelievers.   The concept of hell is well known to most Christians and, sadly, accepted as fact by a great many of them.  I find this far more offensive and it angers me to end when people teach this.   It seems to me that calling them on the fact that they advocate our torture would be far more powerful.  I think it should make them really start to question what they actually believe.  Truthfully, not many Christians have really thought very deeply about the concept of hell.  We should challenge them to really think about what it means.

Interesting idea.  I'm no expert when it comes to the bible, but here's my 2 cents.

I think the idea of hell and eternal torture of non-believers is presented to them as fact, not a prescription for action.  It would be like us teaching someone about gravity and it's effect on a falling rock.  I think pointing out where the bible demands followers to stone all non-believers is effective because, if they are a true believer, they should be following the explicit instructions of the highest authority within this organization they clam to devote their lives to.

Although, I must admit, I haven't had any luck with that argument either  :P

I've had this conversation with my dad, a fundamentalist.

His view is that Hell is an unfortunate product of the "evil in the world," and that God allows Hell to exist because there must be a choice between good and evil, that's what creates free will. He says that we have all done things wrong in our lives, so we are already stamped with evil and deserve hell. But if you hear of God's gift then you have now been presented the choice to be good. If you don't listen, then you allow evil to continue to exist inside of you, without the cleansing of Jesus. And then of course, if you choose to follow Jesus, your sins will be forgiven.

Yeah, so.. that makes a lot of sense somehow? :P

I always wonder whether or not fundamentalist Christians believe that they would still be Christians if they were born in modern Iran, or ancient Egypt...

Yes if Jehovah of the Old Testament were to exist, then any kind, reasonable person would be against him unless they feared eternal damnation & torture & obeyed only through such fear. However, any reasonable person would think that there may be someone Watching the Watchers. I would rather serve in a  Bright Hell than rule in a Dark Heaven.

Stefan Molyneux:

I always wonder whether or not fundamentalist Christians believe that they would still be Christians if they were born in modern Iran, or ancient Egypt...

Funny, that's the first problem I had with religion as a child. I remember, probably when I was around 8 or so, that I asked my mom if people from other religions went to heaven if they really, really believed their religion was true, like I believed mine was true. My mom told me that we just had to pray for their souls and maybe they might get in. I was also told that if I truly desired something with my whole heart, and I was good, my prayer would come true. So I used to pray that everyone in the world would go to heaven. This is the first fervent prayer I remember -- just pleading and pleading with God to let everyone in to heaven, and begging forgiveness for whatever sins I committed at age 8.

I know my mom would say that God would find a way to reach out to her no matter where she was.

I had similar prayers.  I became a "devout" Christian when I was around the age of 13 but I could never get around the idea of hell.  I also could not understand how so many people seemed content with the idea since I personally could not bear it.  Even the thought of someone like Hitler experiencing hell was something I found difficult.  Heck, I couldn't even imagine how Satan himself could possibly be worthy of such a punishment.  (Reminds me of a Rolling Stones song  )   Often, I'd pray that there be some other solution.  I even reasoned that if it meant forfeiting my own existence, I would gladly offer it to prevent the horror of hell.  Thankfully though, it is all mythology and such thoughts were unnessecary.  But it truly is a statement of how religious teaching is indeed child abuse.  As a result of my experience, I'm am very strong against people who profess belief in this nonesense since for me the idea of hell was the most effective idea for leading me away from religion.

Good point.  That seems to be the religious version of "the Gun in the Room" argument.

If they are Christians, they want what God wants.  Therefore, they must want anyone who will not accept JC, to be tortured...for infinity.

That's a pretty damning personal argument.

David:

Interesting idea.  I'm no expert when it comes to the bible, but here's my 2 cents.

I think the idea of hell and eternal torture of non-believers is presented to them as fact, not a prescription for action.  It would be like us teaching someone about gravity and it's effect on a falling rock.  I think pointing out where the bible demands followers to stone all non-believers is effective because, if they are a true believer, they should be following the explicit instructions of the highest authority within this organization they clam to devote their lives to.

Although, I must admit, I haven't had any luck with that argument either  :P

Yes, however, because we will be consigned to hell by the actions of God, they believe that it is just that we go to hell.  In fact, because it is just that we go to hell, they necessarily believe there would be something seriously wrong with the moral order of the world if we didn't.  This is incredibly hateful.  Its the diference between "If you smoke, you run the risk of lung cancer." and "There is something seriously wrong with the world if you don't die a horrible lingering death from cancer you tobacco using sinner."

I grew up in a fundamentalist family and spent way too much time with fundamentalists.  Watch Jesus Camp for elements of my upbringing.  There isn't any argument you can use with fundamentalists that they won't lie their way out of.

I say lie because you can get an explanation from them on one point and ask about a contradiction to that point and they will deny they or the bible contradict what they said.

As for Stef's question, fundamentalists believe that they were born where they were because of god's divine plan.  God wanted them in the US for example and therefore could never have been born in Saudi Arabia.  If you press it, they will vaguely say that god would make himself known to them somehow so that they would know jesus.  Even if you counter with the fact that being born in Saudi almost guarantees your parents being muslim and then them being muslim, they will still say god will save them or say they read about muslims learning the truth and converting to christianity.

As for hell, most christians have a view of hell and the devil that isn't even biblical.  The hell they describe has been extrapolated from a couple of short verses in the bible.  The catholics did a great job of making up additional stories to support scaring people into believing in their religion.  These stories still exist today in nearly all forms of christianity.  All you have to do to show people's ignorance of the bible is to ask them where the fall of lucifer and the angels is in the bible and all the stories that describe the angels in such exacting detail.

Nathan Miller:

Yes, however, because we will be consigned to hell by the actions of God, they believe that it is just that we go to hell.  In fact, because it is just that we go to hell, they necessarily believe there would be something seriously wrong with the moral order of the world if we didn't.  This is incredibly hateful.  Its the diference between "If you smoke, you run the risk of lung cancer." and "There is something seriously wrong with the world if you don't die a horrible lingering death from cancer you tobacco using sinner."

Excellent point!

While hell can be somewhat reconciled with a loving god, if chirstians stopped insisting it was a judgement from God. If it were say, a reaction to God revealing himself to you in the afterlife, where acceptance (caused by godly habbits) is heaven, and rejection (caused by ungodly habbits) is hell. Of course this doesn't solve the other problems in religion  (like what exactly is a soul?)

Your idea is interesting, but I find it hard to imagine how it can be reconcilled, even if they argue hell as you describe because it seems to me that Christians would have to give up their notions of an all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving god if they are to believe in Hell at all.  If god is all-knowing, then surely he knew from the beginning that the vast majority of humanity would not believe in him and end up suffering, justly or not.  Thus, I find it extremely hard to imagine how an all-loving god could still go ahead with his plan.  Also, if he is all-powerful, then there is no choice but to conclude he is willfully choosing to allow humans to make bad decisions with such horrible consequences and very limited information to make the decision, yet he is supposedly all-loving. 

Some furthur observations is that if God is all-loving, surely the plight of the unbelievers would cause god at least some pain.  So, will god spend all of eternity lamenting about the horrible fate of his creations, or will he be able to put it out of his mind?  Will the Christians be made to forget, or could they go on in their bliss and put it out of their minds or become uncaring about the unbelievers.  If god is all-powerful, then surely he has the ability to come up with a better solution to this problem.

Obviously like you suggested there are tonnes of other problems and I'm sure one could go much furthur than this to show how the belief system Christians have surrounding hell is ridiculous, but any bit you can do to shake their beliefs is a step in the right direction in my opinion.

As far as I'm aware, Hell makes absolutely 0 appearance in the Old Testament,
and I'm not even sure if it talks about it in the New Testament or not.
It would be beneficial for your argument to provide a verse or two which talks about Hell.
A great many Christians these days instead just believe in levels of heaven.
Mormons even believe that the lowest level of heaven is far better than life,
but still nothing compared to the highest,
so in that sense, the only "hell" would be the guilt/sorrow one would feel for not believing sooner.

So, yeah, I suggest finding verses which specifically talk about hell.

[edit]

Bible Verses about Hell
How do I make a link?

AESTHETE:

I suggest finding verses which specifically talk about hell.

The site you listed in the edit had the verse I was looking up from Revelation. (Here's the link: hell verses. You make a link by highlighting a word and clicking the little button that looks like a chain) The reason, however, that Christians believe that anyone is not a Christian goes to hell comes from this verse:

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 (quoting Jesus)

Also, John 3:16 which every Christian kid learned in Sunday school: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life"

So that means that you must believe in order to have the "everlasting life" in heaven. These are the verses the average Christian will quote when you ask them about hell.