Freedomain Radio

I have held the belief, for some time now, that with the continued advancement of technology and science, we'll all be very rich and free eventually. With nanotechnology, biotechnology, efficient and mobile sources of energy, there will be nothing for government to offer to individuals. So, just to give one example, in a 100 years or so, when technology enables people to very easily and quickly move around and build self sustaining communities all over the place, governments will have to keep decentralizing until they lose control completely...

So, which do you think is gonna save us from government first, philosophy or technology? I personally think it's gonna be technology. Philosophy is important in explaining everything though...That's what I think.

MK_Safi:

With nanotechnology, biotechnology, efficient and mobile sources of energy, there will be nothing for government to offer to individuals.

Sure there will be. Sanction for committing immoral acts.

Without philosophy - and without a strong and vigorous philosophical basis - a free society can never take hold. 

Ray Kurzweil discusses some of this in his book, The Singularity.  It was at some point during 2006, while reading it, that I recognized that the technologies he was describing, if they came to pass, would entirely obviate nearly all of the "arguments from effect" for government.  One of the biggest dangers he foresaw, however, was the potential for the development of "terrorist" nanobots that would essentially "infect" you and could, given the right radio signal, reduce you to a pile of goo.

Worse, said bots might go entirely out of control.  Kurzweil's answer?  The government will have to become even MORE powerful to defeat this sort of threat.

At the time, my thoughts were: how can you expect a centralized defense to work against a diffuse attack?

Now, however, I don't see how any government would be able to defend itself against such nanobots.  It certainly couldn't develop such defenses on its own.  The only thing the government will be able to do is to move in after it's already under production and make use of it.

The problem of "violence is immoral" is categorically not answered by technology.  If our present society were to obtain such technologies, it's very possible that Kurzweil's worst dreams will come catastrophically true.

I would guess that the Singularity will bring about lasting anarchy, regardless of what has occurred before that.

Given the advanced technology presently available on the planet, there is no reason that we could not, in ten to twenty years time:

• Eliminate homelessness
• Eliminate hunger
• Solve the energy problem with 100% renewable energy
• End war
• Get clean water for everyone
• etc (In short: solve all the major problems on Earth)

We actually have the resources to do it.  We lack only the will.  And of course, government theft diverts most of the available resources that might be available to these ends into warfare and oppression: the management of a police state.

When the Singularity arrives (2025~2050), the whole of these systems will become automated overnight, without the need for human interaction.  We'll have all the food, water, housing, clothing, medicine and other essentials we require, and all of it provided for zero cost. 

If this occurs, what is the purpose of government?

No money.  What are they gonna collect?  Who are they going to tax?  Economics has become obsolete.  What's the motive?

The only motive left is: controlling the human herd for fun.

There's no profit motive anymore, so...

And besides, after the Singularity, when there are millions of super-intelligent post-humans running about, do you really think their superintelligent minds will be so easily duped as today's and yesterday's citizens?

Anarchy is emergent, and it will emerge by necessity when our technology makes economics obsolete.

Money is a tired concept that's about to go the way of the Dodo.

I'm unsure what exactly the singularity is supposed to be. What is predicted to happen? And why would currency disappear? Won't people still want to trade things with each other? It can't all be straight barter.

If I've read Kurzweil's book I have forgotten it. I'd appreciate a short summary of what a post-human looks like, super-intelligent or otherwise, even if it's not the same description that Kurzweil provides.

I think the jury is still out, whether technology will help us more than it will hurt us. Certainly, things like rfid implants and various surveillance technologies (e.g. backscatter X-rays) are not going to be good for us.

The main point seems to be whether rivers of wealth will continue to flow to the state. If we can't stop that, I don't see how we can win.

DW2:

I'm unsure what exactly the singularity is supposed to be. What is predicted to happen? And why would currency disappear? Won't people still want to trade things with each other? It can't all be straight barter.

If I've read Kurzweil's book I have forgotten it. I'd appreciate a short summary of what a post-human looks like, super-intelligent or otherwise, even if it's not the same description that Kurzweil provides.

In the briefest possible terms....

The Singularity: the point in human history when a machine intelligence becomes more intelligent than a human being

The Thesis: Genetic phenomena (evolution) does not stop with pure genetics, but continues on into epigenetic phenomena (writing, art, music, language, building bridges, etc).  The progression from lesser to greater complexity is accelerating, not going at a constant rate.  This may be measured by science, and the measurements agree that genetic and epigenetic processes tend towards greater and greater complexity, and new "revolutions" occur with less and less time between events.  This epigenetic progress is (barring global catastrophe / existential threat) a force of nature, just like evolution, and cannot be thwarted.

The probable results that bear impact on this argument for "anarchy as emergent" would include:

• Molecular Nanotechnology (nanites that can assemble and disassemble things at the atomic level)
• Artificial Intelligence (software that thinks many times faster and better than humans)
  
• Robotics (taking over the entire means of production in keeping humans alive, and freeing humans for tasks other than survival)
  
• Quantum Computing (hardware that outperforms the human nervous system)
  
• Biotechnology / Genetics (curing diseases, and transforming problems like pollution and energy)
• Kardashev Type I - becoming a planet that harvests our energy purely from the renewable resources of the planet itself: wind, solar, water, hyrdrogen, etc - giving up fossil fuels

Why would currency disappear?  Imagine that you can have basically anything you want, short of giant things that take massive resources to produce.  For example, you could have all the food you ever need, all the shelter you ever need, all the clothing you ever need, and all the toys and playthings you'd ever need...for free.  Why?  Because zero human labor was invovled in their manufacture...or putting them into your hands.  Why charge when the cost is zero, and the cost of transferrring them, measured in either dollars or human time or human work...is still zero. 

Would economy disappear entirely?  Maybe not.  Because there'd still be those giant projects.  Someone, or perhaps many people, might want you to give them a bunch of a special rare resource, for example, if you desired to use tons of Earth resources to build yourself an intergalactic space cruiser.  But for simple things...cars...bikes...food...clothing...the necessities of life, and also the fun things like...music players...skis...whatever...they'd have zero cost to produce.

And when full molecular nanotech comes along, anyone will be able to produce the most basic goods with a simple nano-manufacturing device they carry around in their pockets...which was also made for free...by robots and nanites that are smarter than you.

I would imagine that the only "trade" as such would be of objects produced exclusively by humans.  Unique objects.  Art.  Writing.  A dance performance.  A massage.  These things will still have value because they are unique, and cannot be machine-produced, but what would be the purpose of charging for them?  To buy what?  You might trade with someone...or gift to someone...but there's still no purpose for the money.  What will you "buy" with it later? 

Again...unless you want to build an intergalactic cruiser...I think you'll be able to get it for free.

Parenting.

So if machine intelligence is greater than human intelligence, does that mean just superior processing power or do they develop sentience, too?

Initially just processing power, but yes, eventually sentience.

For those interested in this topic, I would suggest you view the following:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/visions-future.shtml An excellent 3-part series from BBC Four on the immediate future of technology.

http://transcendentman.com/ The trailer here has a good overview of Kurzweil's ideas.

http://www.singularity.com/themovie/index.php Coming soon!

Philosophy will eventually cement things, but technology will certainly force the issue before ~2050 at the latest (probably significantly sooner).  Ridiculous euphemisms for violence-based control like "good governance" will be increasingly easy to see through as the choice will more and more obviously be between this:

and this:

No matter how sluggish people are to catch on, there will be a point at which the choice will be obvious to all, and impossible to ignore.