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Latest post Fri, Nov 30 2007 4:03 AM by Dtomboy. 48 replies.
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  • Wed, Oct 10 2007 7:04 PM

    I think that's the number anyway.  It's about poverty and in it Stef relays lots of his personal life growing up.  Here is a thought I had while listening. 

    I have also read/listened to his thoughts and comments about voting and how that sanctions the system and all, therefore it is not a good idea.

    In this podcast he mentions (you? I don't know how to address these posts here, as if I'm writing directly to Stef or not) how he struggled with the idea but did end up taking government funds to help purchase his higher education.  And he says he's glad he did that even in hindsight.

    So here's my question: how is that any different than voting?  Aren't we sanctioning and legitimizing the system when we accept the funds in the same manner one does when voting?  And it some ways isn't it even worse because they can point to the fact we took the money and say, see you needed our help after all.  And you took it so why would you deny that same thing to your neighbor?

    Debbie

    Homeschooling is a funny thing to do: Okay Kids, Time for Bedlam

    Follow along with Debbie as she works her way through The Voluntaryist on the "Debbie and Carl" blog.

  • Wed, Oct 10 2007 8:00 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 58

    But - they're going to take my money for my whole life, right?

     

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  • Thu, Oct 11 2007 7:42 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 58

    Stefan Molyneux:

    But - they're going to take my money for my whole life, right?

    Umm, yeah.  Not sure where you are going with that.  Are you saying it's a matter of degree?  You only took government funds for a "short time" so that makes it okay?  If you only raped a woman for 5 minutes, that would make it okay, or at least much better than the guy who abused her for 10 hours?  I did just read your strike the root column which was handy considering my question here, huh?  If I were an egomaniac, I'd think you quickly wrote that up just for little old me. Smile

    Anyway, you say in that article that participation is not sanction.  Yet I thought that was part of the argument against voting.  Participation is either sanction in all things related to government or it isn't, right? 

    If everyone continues using government services in areas where there are alternatives, then won't things only get worse and worse?  I guess I come to this from my experience with education.  If all the so-called libertarians only did one thing and took their kids out of government schools, even if perhaps just K-6, and then worked to help get others out, those kids would get a much better (and more libertarian) education plus the system might eventually just crash from misuse.  But that would never happen if people who understand libertarian ideas continue to let the government educate their kids.  And whether or not that crash occurred, at the very least all those people would not be sanctioning the whole idea of government doing the educating of our children.  Participation would indeed be sanction here don't you think? 

    I have to say in that article and in the podcast your comments about how you framed your reasoning for taking government funds sounds like just pure rationalization for you going ahead and getting what you wanted at the time.  You frame it as the entity (government and mafia) who take the money and then talk of the money as if it's "theirs" for you to take back.  But it's not one pile of something that becomes "theirs."  Even though they now have it, it's still a mix of all the individuals', including yours, money that was taken.  So if you grab that mafia money, sure you take it back from them, but in reality, you've taken the money from all the other individuals who have had their money taken.  Am I right on this?

    Why is it okay just because you happened to have a chance to grab some back?  What about those others whose money was also taken but who never got such a chance?  They are still forced to subsidize when you take that bag lying there.  They are no better off.  Unless you can divide it out and give the right amount back to each individual, you're no different than the mafia, right?  It does not matter whether or not it was possible or practical to do the dividing and get it to the right people, the fact that you don't means that you are no better than the mafia who also had the bag 10 minutes ago because now you are the holder of other people's money.

    If everyone continues to take advantage of these things we play right into the hands of the government because then they can look and say, "yep, it's a good idea we set this up, heck even Stef needed our help.  And that's what the government's here for, to help people like Stef."  Notice how I said that, you "needed the government's help."  They certainly don't care about your reasoning for taking the money being that you felt you simply got some of what you paid back; they will only see that you needed help and they gave it to you.  And so they will continue to take from others and give to others. Because all they want to do is help poor college students who need a little boost, who just can't do it on their own. Wink

    Also on the comment that you have now paid so much in taxes that it's moot you took the money in the past because you paid it back and some,   I don't particularly understand that argument, because the money was taken from other productive individuals in the first place.  So when you have to pay your own taxes, you are certainly not paying anything back to those individuals who were stolen from so you could go to school.  You're just giving more money to the government, so the next person can figure out their own rationalizations and justifications for taking government money when it benefits them to do so. And so the cycle continues.  This is not sanction?

    Seems to me in order to take the moral position, we'd have to work as hard as we can to never take funds where we have a clear choice or reasonable alternative (government loans for education vs driving on the roads for example). Don't get me wrong, I don't blame you, my kids did end up going to public universities, but I'm just trying to come to terms with, and understand all these moral arguments.

    Please tell me where my thinking is off track.

    Debbie

    Homeschooling is a funny thing to do: Okay Kids, Time for Bedlam

    Follow along with Debbie as she works her way through The Voluntaryist on the "Debbie and Carl" blog.

  • Thu, Oct 11 2007 7:54 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 58

    Why don't we have a call and talk it out?

    Skype or phone, your call!Big Smile


    I also wrote this, which might help... 

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  • Sun, Oct 14 2007 10:46 AM In reply to

    Re: FDR 58

    Stefan Molyneux:

    Why don't we have a call and talk it out?

    Skype or phone, your call!Big Smile


    I also wrote this, which might help... 

    What is Skype?  What do you mean have a call and talk it out?  Isn't that what this forum is for?  Although I would be open to doing that if you are serious.

    Secondly, didn't you notice in my post that I already read and referred to the article you linked in your answer above?  Are you trying to tell me I did not read it closely enough?

    Let me see if I can summarize what you may be saying. 

    You said in the article participation is NOT sanction.  But didn't I see that you think voting IS sanction? 

    I don't see the difference.  If you use your reasoning for participation by taking some government benefits, then you would have to agree that participation by voting is the same.

    Debbie

    Homeschooling is a funny thing to do: Okay Kids, Time for Bedlam

    Follow along with Debbie as she works her way through The Voluntaryist on the "Debbie and Carl" blog.

  • Sun, Oct 14 2007 11:49 AM In reply to

    Re: FDR 58

    But they stole my money - they didn't "steal" my vote.

    Taking my money back is a positive for me. Voting is a net negative, since it wastes my time and will never decrease the power of government.

    People have tried to control government through voting for centuries - and government control has only increased.

    If no one took government money back, the system would still flourish.

    If no one voted, the sanction of the system would collapse.

    Skype is a free PC calling program, if you have a mic we can talk for free - let me know!Big Smile

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  • Sun, Oct 14 2007 12:25 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 58

    Stefan Molyneux:

    If no one voted, the sanction of the system would collapse.

    If no one took advantage of government services, government influence would collapse.
  • Sun, Oct 14 2007 12:57 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 58

    How so?

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  • Sun, Oct 14 2007 1:06 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 58

    Stefan Molyneux:
    How so?
    Well, the government didn't expand because they decided it would be a good idea to provide more services as inefficiently as possible (although I'm sure you dispute that).  It's the masses that are screaming for the government to solve all of their problems.  If everybody stops accepting government handouts in all forms (loans, welfare, insurance, etc.), then they can't justify the collection of taxes for those services.  It has the same effect as everyone not voting with equal probablity of happening.
  • Sun, Oct 14 2007 3:15 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 58

    Really? The masses wanted the government to take control of the money supply? I mean, the welfare state really started during the Great Depression, which was the result of state manipulation of the money supply. And the Fed allows governments to bribe people in the present without raising taxes immediately...

    How about public education? Did that arise because parents were dissatisfied with the quality of private education?

    Can you provide some evidence?

    Thanks!

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  • Sun, Oct 14 2007 3:39 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 58

    Stefan Molyneux:

    Really? The masses wanted the government to take control of the money supply? I mean, the welfare state really started during the Great Depression, which was the result of state manipulation of the money supply. And the Fed allows governments to bribe people in the present without raising taxes immediately...


    There's no argument here that the government uses its control over the money supply to pay for stuff that they can't afford.  But the dissolution of theFed is an attainable goal by electing Libertarian candidates (which you also oppose).  Take away that control, and remove the need for governent services, and the government dies. 

    Stefan Molyneux:

    How about public education? Did that arise because parents were dissatisfied with the quality of private education?


    No, they were dissatisfied with the cost of private education.  Socialist group think made it a popular opinion that it wasn't fair that poor people couldn't afford private education, so they asked the state to take that over.  Anybody concerned with quality of education wouldn't choose public education at any point...especially now.

    Stefan Molyneux:

    Can you provide some evidence?

    Thanks!

    Nope.  Can you provide any evidence of a government failing because people stopped voting?
  • Sun, Oct 14 2007 3:51 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 58

    Stefan Molyneux:

    But they stole my money - they didn't "steal" my vote.

    Taking my money back is a positive for me. Voting is a net negative, since it wastes my time and will never decrease the power of government.

    People have tried to control government through voting for centuries - and government control has only increased.

    If no one took government money back, the system would still flourish.

    If no one voted, the sanction of the system would collapse.

    Skype is a free PC calling program, if you have a mic we can talk for free - let me know!Big Smile

    Can we talk about the sanction part here?  I agree that if no one voted, the sanction of the system would collapse.  I'm doing my part in that area. Smile I also think it's the same thing with taking government money and your stand on this puzzles me.  Whether we like it or not, If we take government money (especially money we can opt out of taking), we have just sanctioned the system.

    If no one took government money, the system would not flourish because people would just not pay the state any more.  As a matter of fact, this path seems like the best one because the folks who do this truly have an understanding of what is going on.  You don't have the issue of the people who are apathetic who don't vote.  Everyone who refuses government funds are already on the same page, so if no one took government money, they are certainly all not going to continue giving money to the state.

    And I am utterly puzzled at your attitude on this.  I thought a big part of your podcasts were all about how we as individuals have to live our lives as morally as we can.  And you try to tell people it's hard.  And you're right because part of that means not taking advantage of government benefits when we can opt out.  But when you espouse taking government benefits that we could opt out of taking, then we look just like everyone else we like to call hypocrites.

    Debbie

    Homeschooling is a funny thing to do: Okay Kids, Time for Bedlam

    Follow along with Debbie as she works her way through The Voluntaryist on the "Debbie and Carl" blog.

  • Sun, Oct 14 2007 4:08 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 58

    Dtomboy:

    If no one took government money, the system would not flourish because people would just not pay the state any more.

    I don't know what that means - can you give me some real-world examples, with evidence?

    Thanks! 

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  • Sun, Oct 14 2007 8:03 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 58

    Stefan Molyneux:
    Dtomboy:

    If no one took government money, the system would not flourish because people would just not pay the state any more.

    I don't know what that means - can you give me some real-world examples, with evidence?

    Thanks! 

    No.  Can you explain how taking government money is not sanction?

    Homeschooling is a funny thing to do: Okay Kids, Time for Bedlam

    Follow along with Debbie as she works her way through The Voluntaryist on the "Debbie and Carl" blog.

  • Sun, Oct 14 2007 8:48 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 58

    Well, there is no such thing as "government money," since it's all stolen...

    But if you won't give examples of what you mean, and I can't understand your point, this debate is over for me.
     

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