Freedomain Radio

I am saying that we should respect and accept gays as we would anyone else, NOT because "they can't help it" BUT because they are NOT doing anything bad or immoral or evil or what have you. I am NOT saying that anyone should change anything, UNLESS they have made their choices based on bad information such as childhood abuse or neglect or trauma, and are in fact acting against their own values. In my understanding, free will means that people actually make choices on these life issues, and therefore are capable of choosing in ERROR, especially if they choose UNCONSCIOUSLY.

I don't know how to make it any more clear.
 

Well sure, there's of course nothing immoral about homosexuality, but you're not really making a logical argument, you're just saying "it's a choice" and dismissing the science.

Gay men found themselves attracted to men, not women. They didn't choose who they were attracted to any more than you did.

Does that make sense?

did you catch the recap that you asked for?

Stefan Molyneux:

Well sure, there's of course nothing immoral about homosexuality, but you're not really making a logical argument, you're just saying "it's a choice" and dismissing the science.

Gay men found themselves attracted to men, not women. They didn't choose who they were attracted to any more than you did.

Does that make sense?

OK. I'll try again a different way.

I am suggesting that we don't 100% choose who we are attracted to, but that it's not 100% biological either. But we do choose our behavior. I'm not claiming perfect knowledge here, and it is grossly simplified, so feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.

There is a minimum 10 year period at the beginning of our lives, wherein no sexual behavior occurs naturally. During this time, we are all madly gathering information about our surroundings, and putting it away for future reference. At puberty this information begins to be combined with our instincts, and the brain type which was determined in the womb, and a personality emerges, which will include things like sexual attractions.

Now let's say that a boy has experienced sexual abuse from an uncle during these early years. Let's say that his brain has an above average degree of "femaleness" stemming from a lack of testosterone during the third month in the womb. He is confused by the abuse, of course, and feels the need to deflect blame from his family, so he assumes that he must have brought it upon himself somehow. He hears at school that only "gay" boys kiss boys. "That explains it," he thinks, "I am gay and I made Uncle *** do that to me." That information goes into the pot and shows up in his adolescent personality. The resulting attractions he experiences do not offend his female-ish brain, so he chooses to come out of the closet, and start engaging in gay sex. This decision, once taken, is very difficult to back away from. Later on, those same female aspects of his brain start telling him to start and raise his own family. Now he's confused again, and depressed, and has a very difficult time understanding what's going on in his head.

Does this seem like an impossible scenario?

Now let's say you are his therapist. You can't consider his homosexuality to be evidence of anything, because you assume that it is 100% biological, because that's what the "science" says. And you tell him so, repeatedly. But the science you choose to pay attention to, has been manipulated and exaggerated to suit some same-sex benefit legislation that some activists wanted passed. The opposing "science" would have you send him to an exorcist.

Are you any use to this guy?

Stefan Molyneux:

...you're not really making a logical argument, you're just saying "it's a choice" and dismissing the science.

Do you really think that? Have you read the whole thread? Help me out here, I don't want to be annoying, but I think I've got a point to make. I've provided some critique of the science, I've shown my logic. If I'm really screwing something up, please show me where my errors are. 

Do you choose who you are attracted to? No

Do you choose who you persue? Yes

Behaviour is a choice, but attraction isn't. Gay people don't choose to be gay any more than straight people choose to be straight. 

reddeerrick:

Obviously, I have personal reasons for my thoughts on this, and I will share if people are interested. I'd feel pretty stupid putting it out there if no-one gives a shit though.

I'm interested. What are your personal reasons? 

Wow, curiosity...who'd a thunk.

Well, I'm at work now and it's a kinda long story, so it'll probably take a while. 

I'll wait for that.

reddeerrick:

Stefan Molyneux:

...you're not really making a logical argument, you're just saying "it's a choice" and dismissing the science.

Do you really think that? Have you read the whole thread? Help me out here, I don't want to be annoying, but I think I've got a point to make. I've provided some critique of the science, I've shown my logic. If I'm really screwing something up, please show me where my errors are. 

You provide justifications like aesthetics ("Isn't it more respectful to presume they have the same capacity to choose that the rest of us have" and "I don't really think comparing apples to oranges is particularly helpful here"), but aesthetics aren't a logical proof.

If you're trying to refute what Stef said using logic, you need to do better than merely stating things which require proof, like animal tests are useless for figuring out humans.  A purely logical argument doesn't assume things that aren't accepted by both parties.  That's why proof by contradiction is so powerful: it only relies on what the other person already believes.

Or you can provide empirical arguments for your assumptions.  Either is acceptable.

Well thanks, Mr. C, I can see what you're saying. In the OP, I was mostly trying to show that no proof has been shown for the assertions given in the podcast, which was mostly Stef reading from a book. I tried reading a book by an author that was mentioned in the podcast, and only found more of the same. Cleverly worded descriptions of tests that appeared to prove something, but upon reading and re-reading turned out to be mere assertions, with anything that would constitute proof or even evidence left out. I had a hard time keeping the visceral reaction I had to this book out of my post. I used to be a very unemotional person, but that appears to be changing. Sorry.

The point that I failed to make clear about the animal tests is that even if they did show some kind of evidence, they can only record behavior. What I thought we all agreed on was that human behavior, as opposed to animal behavior, cannot be taken out of context of free will. A human will not automatically expose his rump to you just because this or that hormone has been restricted, even if it is proven that a rat will. A man does not escape responsibility for choosing to father a child simply because he was following his instinctual need to get his rocks off. There is simply much more going on in humans.

 

reddeerrick:

A man does not escape responsibility for choosing to father a child simply because he was following his instinctual need to get his rocks off. There is simply much more going on in humans.

I'll admit that I haven't followed this thread very closely, but is there a distinction being made between desire and behavior vis-a-vis homosexuality?

Sure, I can certainly choose whether I engage in certain behaviors with women, as can homosexuals with members of the same sex.  Can I choose that I'm attracted to them?  I don't think so, and never have been able to control it before.

So "which" homosexuality are we talking about?
 

And of course if biology had little or no effect on sexual preference, we would expect men and women to be attracted to same/opposite sex partners more randomly, but gays are represented fairly evenly across cultures, which also indicates a genetic basis.

A gay man can of course control his actions, but not his attractions. Even a monk still has a sex drive.

But what was the personal stuff you wanted to talk about? 

I will have to get to it later. I work in a room with two other guys, and I don't really want to be writing a whole bunch of personal stuff that they could read. I'm also getting quite busy.

Charlie:

  Can I choose that I'm attracted to them?  I don't think so, and never have been able to control it before.

Are you attracted to all women?